Joe Jordan is a 16-yr field investigator for the Mutual UFO Network, President of the CE4 Research Group, Co-founder of the Paranormal and Alien Abductors Problem Solvers Int'l (PAAPSI). Joe is also the co-author, with David Ruffino, of the upcoming book, "Unholy
Communion: The Alien Abduction Phenomenon, Where It Originates and How It Stops," about which Dr. Michael Heiser in his endorsement of the book, said: "If even 10% of the witnesses in this book are honest about what happened to them, and in particular how they were rescued from their torment, then David and Joseph have earned the right to be heard."
Q: Can you explain to the listeners what CE4 stands for?
A: Close Encounter of the Fourth Kind, which is alien abductions.
Q: I want to ask you about this spate of recent news concerning the big question: are we alone in the universe, that is coming out of the Royal Society meetings. I have 10-12 headlines in front of me that have all come out in the last few days, one from yesterday, "Lord Rees Says Aliens May Be Staring Us in The Face." There has never been a time in history when you had such a panel of scientists as in the Royal Society meetings taking this issue head on and actually talking about it in terms of it being a real phenomenon, and therefore that there should be a concerted effort on the part of NASA, governments, to look deeply into this whole subject of astrobiology.
A: I've seen more and more of this starting to come out over the past couple years. When I got into UFO research 16 years ago it was nothing like it is today, and the push for disclosure and research being done in the scientific fields compared to 15-20 years ago has dramatically changed.
Q: How did you enter the field of UFO research?
A: It's not something I was always interested in. It was kind of accidental. I was on a vacation, and I had a 10-hour flight ahead of me to go to Alaska. I stopped in a little news stand in the airport and picked up a book, and being an avid sci-fi reader, I thought I had a sci-fi book in my hand, and when I flipped the book over and read the back cover I was puzzled, because it said this book was about honest, serious investigation, It puzzled me that what looked like sci-fi could in any way be related to serious investigations, and the title of it was "UFO Crash in Roswell." The book consumed me, and I couldn't put my head around it. I had no background in the study of UFOs and no interest at all in the subject. Over the next couple of months I contacted some of the people that were part of MUFON and became a member, then trained to be a field investigator and after a while I had my own team of investigators. I continue to stay with MUFON for a number of reasons. They helped me right at the beginning in the training and provided a basis and foundation from which to work, and I recommend people who want to get into the research aspect of UFOs to become a MUFON member. I think it's an excellent group.
Q: How open is MUFON if an investigation seems to be going in the direction of the metaphysical or paranormal, or smacks of the demonic. Do you find a resistance to that kind of thinking, are they open to it, or what?
A: There's quite a resistance to it. That's something I've encountered over the years, but it doesn't deter me from working with them. I guess it's kind of a love/hate relationship. They know what I've come across and what my research consists of, and they are not open to it and they really won't talk to me about it.
Q: When you say there's a resistance to it, are you talking about it from an organizational point of view? Have you come into contact with other members who believe there could be something in this that is other-worldly?
A: Oh, yes. And I've seen that change happen over the years. When I first got into this, the push was to verify the so-called aliens are ET biological entities, and I've seen the move away from that over the years, to more and more it being termed 'inter-dimensional,' and I guess they're at a loss to explain the abilities that these entities have. The shift going into the inter-dimensional aspect of it kind of gives them an answer to work with for what these entities are able to do.
Q: For you, specifically, when did your research start focusing on alien abductions?
A: As a state section director for MUFON, we had monthly meetings, and after the first couple of years we started to see that doing sighting investigations was like chasing your tail. MUFON has been doing sighting investigations since 1959, and it still continues today. But we saw that we weren't going to get to any of the answers we wanted out of this research unless we changed our avenue of focus. And because of our monthly meetings, we started hearing stories from people attending the meetings, claiming that they were either contactees or abductees. So we started listening to their stories and thinking about their involvement with this phenomenon. We started to realize that if you're trying to get to the source of what this is all about you need to get closer to the source itself. We realized that these people who were claiming contact or the abduction
experience were closer to the source of the experience than the people who were having sighting only. So we decided to move our focus to the abduction realm because they seemed to be on the front line of the UFO phenomenon.
Q: Were you seeing anything different in your research than that of other abduction researchers?
A: Once we started really getting in depth and doing the investigations with the experiencers themselves we were not seeing anything different in our findings than what most of the top researchers in the world were already seeing. We couldn't understand what was causing the experience, why certain people had the experience, and why was it seeming to be generational? We didn't have any more answers than they did. [Generational is key. It is very common for demonic activity to inhabit generation after generation of individuals.]
Q: You soon came across something very different in your findings that would change the course of your abduction research. Can you enlighten us a little bit on that?
A: Yes, and this was where the line of my focus on UFO research has been for the last 16 years. We came across one very unusual case that we had to look at very closely and try to understand what was happening. A gentleman was sharing his story, and during our interviewing of him and he stated that he had a typical abduction experience in 1976, but during the actual experience he had fallen into a panic situation. He was in sheer terror of the experience itself. During the experience he called out in the name of Jesus Christ, and he said the experience abruptly stopped. Well, that puzzled us because in all the research we had done, and in all of our reading
and watching videos, etc., we never saw where anybody had ever stopped an experience. As a matter of fact, most of the researchers were saying it wasn't possible. But here we had a particular case of a man saying he had stopped this experience ABRUPTLY while it was happening. And this was the method that he used. So we started to look into that and I contacted some of the top abduction researchers in the country and shared this with them, and each time we shared this with one, he would say "Can I go off the record?" And I said, "Sure, just help me here." Off the record, meaning I can't tell you who said what, but I can tell you what they said. My question to them was, "Have you ever come across this type of experience in your research?" And what I was getting from them was, "Yes, we have." So I asked them why they had not shared this information, because we haven't read about it anywhere in your writings, we haven't heard about it or seen it in any of your conference materials, and most UFO researchers say it's not possible. The answer I got from most of them was that they didn't know what to make of it. I would have been fine with that, but most of them had another answer that came along with that, and it was "We didn't want to go there, because it might hinder the way we're looked at in the field of research." And, I thought, these guys are sitting on relevant information and not sharing it. That's called COVER UP. Here they have findings in their research, but because they're uncomfortable sharing it because of their reputations, they just don't report it. When I realized what was happening I told them that I had nothing to lose - I've come across something very unusual, I've confirmed that there are other cases like this. I'm going to take this one piece of the puzzle and run with it, and I'm going to find more of these cases and document them because it needs to be shared. It's part of the entire picture, one of the puzzle pieces that shows us what we're dealing with. That's when my research started to change, and that was
about 13 years ago.
Q: There have been various secular researchers, for instance Jacques Vallee, Dr. John Mack, Dr. John Keel, even Hynek; and they found that there was a strong similarity, if not an exact parallel, in their study of alien abduction phenomenon and historic demonology - demonism. They write about it in their own works. I'm talking about SECULAR researchers that said they had come to conclude that whatever this phenomenon is, in their minds it was identical to the biblical stories of demonism, and some of the stories of folk lore where people were visited by incubus and succubus, etc.
Q:How did you then go about building a database of these similar testimonies concerning deliverance by the name of Jesus, which would certainly carry with it the idea that this was most likely something of a demonic nature. And it also illustrates that in any case, no matter what it was, even if it was something from another world, that it would be subject to the authority of the name of Jesus Christ. Now, how in the world do you go about building a database of testimonies where you're finding redundancy to that story line?
A: That was our biggest problem in the beginning. Because we were confirmed by these other researchers that these types of cases were out there, and the hard part was trying to locate them. You want to be careful when doing the research that you aren't 'leading' these cases. I didn't want to put myself in a situation where I was out there trying to hunt these people down.
I wanted to make sure that they knew I was available, and they could freely come to me. And that's very important when you're building the researcher database, and I still stick by that today. I never search for them. We didn't know what to do in the beginning to get this started. And we were lucky enough, my partner and I who started CE4, we had a local newspaper reporter that had worked with us over the years in our local monthly MUFON meetings. He was always trying to keep an article going about us with upcoming events, etc., and when we came across this particular part of the research we brought it to him. He said the spiritual aspect was not his field of reporting and suggested we talk to the religious editor. He introduced us to her, Rita Elkins, at the Florida Today newspaper, and she took the information and put it together. We ended up getting two pages in the "People" section. And we were happy about that. During the next couple of weeks we got calls from all over the country. Gannett owned the paper, and they ran it in their affiliates all over the country. This was our first big exposure that let people know we were interested in this type of information. This was in 1997. The internet was just taking off back then, and someone picked it up on the internet, and it took off worldwide. Then a couple of months later, Flying Saucer Review printed the entire article. It was amazing because we had no idea how to get this information out there. We knew that people who didn't like it couldn't do anything to stop it at this point. Then we built our own website and started putting some of these stories up. ww.CE4Research.com. I think we have about 90 of the 400 or so cases on the site.
Q: Were you a Christian when you started this research?
A: No, I wasn't. I was pretty much an agnostic. I didn't believe in God. In fact I saw that as advantage, and it would be a good open, honest and totally objective and unbiased way to come into the area of UFO research. As I worked in the field I saw an increasing amount of New Age and metaphysical thinking involved in the UFO phenomenon, and I got tied up into that for about four years. It was in November 1996 that I had the gospel of Jesus Christ introduced to me in a way that I'd never heard it before, and became a Christian right at the time that I saw that first case about the intervention of Jesus. So I've seen this phenomenon from three different perspectives - agnostic, New Age, and Christian.
Q: What were your first feelings about this guy who said he'd stopped his abduction experience through the name of Jesus Christ? Were you a Christian by that time?
A; I had just become a Christian - brand spankin' new.
Q: Sounds like maybe God got you ready just in time, for what he wanted you to do. Have you shared your feelings and your findings with the UFO community in general?
A: I have been working on that over the years and having a hard time doing it. I spoke at Roswell at the UFO Festival a number of times, trying to share the message because a lot of people come there looking for answers, and it's kind of the Mecca for the UFOers. I had the opportunity to work with Guy Malone, who was the Director of the 60th Festival for the City of
Roswell. He got me a speaking position in 2007, and that was the first time I really had a public opportunity to share it with the secular community. And it was a hostile crowd. But I was able to get the message across. The Q&A got a little hostile. Then in 2008 I had the opportunity to be the Director of the Roswell UFO Conference for the city's UFO Festival, and again I had the
opportunity to share the gospel, and Dave Ruffino and I gave the "Unholy Communion" talk, and it pretty much shocked them. By that time we had their full attention. They never saw what was coming at them. You can hear that talk on my website in its entirety, and you can see why they were kind of angry. The researchers there were kind of hostile after we shared that talk, but at least we had a chance to share that piece of the puzzle at the table after all these years. It's been a tough one, trying to share it.
Q: Have you been able to help other people with the findings on your research?
A: Yes, and that wasn't our main intent in the beginning. When we started doing this research, all I wanted to do was to compile the data and let people take it for what they wanted to take it as. But the more we worked with these experiencers and had hundreds of opportunities to speak with these people, we started seeing some similarities that we needed to consider and making sure that we were keeping track of. Once we started getting all these testimonies posted up on the website, not only was I getting people contacting me, saying, "I'd like to share my testimony
because I've done this, too," we were having those that were contacting us saying: "I've read these testimonies; I'm having these experiences; can you help me stop them?" We were seeing people able to stop it and never again have the experience in their lives, and we then could say that, yes, we thought we could help them, and we have been able to help these people
stop the experiences, also.
Q: So it turned into a whole community of people that you minister to on a whole different level than what most of us are used to.
A: Yes. And there are only a handful of us in the world that have taken on this group of people. I guess you could call this a mission field. And if you listen to the polls that have been done on this over the years, they estimate possibly millions of people have been through this experience, and
it's terrifying. It turns your life upside down. There are a lot of hurting people out there that have had this experience, and there's just not a foundation set up to help them in the right way
Q: I would imagine that these people probably question their own sanity at times.
A; Oh, absolutely. In one of the talks I'm getting ready to do in Nashville, The Last Days Conference, at the end of April, and I'm continuing with my 'unholy communion' talks and I'm going to go deeper and explain how this has destroyed people's lives.
Q: There have been some secular researchers that have come across experiencers that have said that they used the name of Jesus and it didn't work. What would you say in response to these claims?
A: I've had this one thrown at me a number of times; it's one they try to trip me up with. There are some good answers for this question. What we have found here is not a magic word; it's not something you would use like 'abracadabra.' This must come from a belief, straight from the heart. We're seeing that these entities recognize this name as the authority, but they also recognize whether the person actually accepts that as the authority in his life. This is extremely important and needs to be recognized. The only way this works is for people who have actually claimed Jesus Christ as their Lord and Master, and have a personal relationship that they have been working on with Jesus Christ. The Bible says that Jesus knows his sheep. This name, Jesus, is thrown around in this field in a number of ways. You hear, for instance, the New Agers using the term "Christ consciousness" and we hear people say they've met Jesus on the space ships. Well, excuse me, that's not the same one that's working here in this instance. These people that say they've tried this and it didn't work - if I had a little bit of time to work with them ... next time it would work. When secular researchers tell me this I ask if they can introduce me to the particular persons; I'd like to speak with them. That never happens. But at the same time, I've brought my cases forward, and these people are there to talk to anyone who wants to talk to them. They are not secret. Many are on the website. At my 2008 conference I had 10 people up on that stage who were living examples...you never see that at UFO conferences. You see fuzzy pictures, fuzzy videos, people saying 'trust me, this is what I found.' I specifically tell people at the end of these conferences, "Please, don't trust me. Trust the evidence." Secular researchers won't even talk to them. They won't check them out to see if they're real - because they know they are, and they don't want to deal with it. It's easier for them to just come against me personally, as a Christian.
Q: What do you believe is the agenda of these alien entities?
A: I believe that what's happening here is a powerful delusion and deception. What I'm seeing as a result of people coming into contact with them is that it takes their focus off the one true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These entities come with a message. A lot of these
experiencers have come into contact with communications that are always anti-God, anti-Bible, anti-Christ. They're coming here to preach a new gospel, which we have been warned about in the Bible. This is why the title of my next seminar is "Casualties of a Cosmic War." The prize of this war is eternal souls, and I think these people are doomed if they don't get help.
Q: A lot of researchers and scientists are pressing for disclosure by the US Gov't. Are you in favor of that, and do you think it will happen?
A: I am in favor of disclosure, and in 2007 at the 60th Anniversary Conference, Stephen Bassing (sp?) was there and he was pushing for US disclosure, and I agree. I have my view of what this is all about, but I can no more get my message out there than he can. But the secular researchers
are pushing for government disclosure, and I'm all for it because I'm going to ride that wave. If they can get some kind of recognition and public awareness of this phenomenon, then they're also going to have to listen to our findings, which will give us an avenue to share with the public the unwanted piece of the puzzle.
Q: I want to also get your position on recent Vatican comments. You have astronomers, one of which said recently that there is a certain possibility, from their point of view, of intelligent life out there in the universe - and that idea would not contradict the Catholic faith. Those statements by Funes were the latest in a string of comments by Vatican astronomers who are evidently confirming a belief they have that discovery might be made in the near future, and they're talking about ET Intelligence, not micro-organisms; and that this discovery will not unhinge the doctrine of Christ. Balducci not only said that ET's are real, but they are on earth now, and even inter-acting with the earth governments, and that people at the highest levels of the Vatican administration were aware of it. Before that, maverick Catholic theologian, Malachi Martin, said the reason the Vatican is so invested in this is because they know what is coming. It seems like the Vatican either knows something that we don't know, or at a minimum they're trying to preserve their authority among the laity by positioning themselves, just in case. This is the same institution that put people to death who questioned whether the earth was flat or round.
A: Well, I'd almost have to go with the latter of what you suggested. I don't see in biblical scripture that there is even an allowing of the possibility of ET life. I believe you will find intelligent life out there, but it won't be ET or biological entities. I believe that the reference of the 'host of heaven' being the angelic realm - most people would say that's from a supernatural realm, or that they do exist. But if they are part of God's creation like we are, then it's not a supernatural realm; it's part of the natural realm. I think when you start looking at the fruits of what these entities do, and what they communicate, and their effects on people, you're going to see that they're not very good [righteous]. I think we're going to have a lot of work to do in picking up the pieces from people who get involved with them. I think the Vatican is very deceived on all of this. I don't understand exactly what their purpose is in making the statements they've made, except that they haven't done the research.
Q: Could it be part of a great deception?
A: Oh, absolutely. We're seeing that come at us from so many different avenues, whether it be from the Vatican or Hollywood or different governments that are pushing agendas, we're seeing a lot of deception going on in this field. We're seeing deception from the researchers
themselves, the ones we've been relying on for the truth. They're only sharing what fits their agenda.
Q: Some of the Christian theologians we've been talking to about eschatological issues have a theory that the Vatican could even unknowingly [or knowingly] play into a deception where they are saying if these things appear they are our space brothers, a part of the family of God. They say they won't disrupt the authority of the church or unhinge the doctrine of Christ, and that this sets people up to be willing to accept, as part of God's family, the appearance of these things, so that if there's a Rapture and people are missing, and all of a sudden there's an armada of spaceships and these 'brothers in Christ,' according to the Vatican, say 'we took some of them away and left some of you here' ... is this all just sci-fi, in terms of theology, eschatology? Do you think there's anything about any of this that could really play out that way?
A: I think it's a possibility. That's just a personal opinion. What I will tell you is that in the research I worked with, I tried not to push my personal opinion. I like for people to just look at the evidence. Which may bring up some of these questions in their own minds.
Q: Even among non-Christians, some espouse what they call the 'ancient astronaut theory.' Can you explain this theory and how your views would differ from theirs?
A: Their idea is that there were beings [aliens] here in our ancient history, and they were mistaken for gods. The one thing that people are not understanding is that these are gods with a small 'g'. And that's the deception. And what we're dealing with here is that these entities are the same small 'g' gods from ancient history [fallen angels and their offspring]. The ones that Hynek and Vallee wrote about, the little gods, are the ETs, and we've been dealing with them throughout history, all along. They're still doing the same deceptive things, except to a higher degree. This is something that needs to be looked at, and that is the extent of the deception that we're dealing with now, compared to earlier times. I think it's leading up to something very big, a culmination of events that are happening.
Q: You mentioned things that happened earlier in history; there are some people who believe that this ET contact, both ancient and modern, it is related to ancient fallen angels, who gave birth to the Nephilim, that what they were doing in their day is somehow related to what's happening now. And that this could even play some role in fulfilling this prophecy of Christ,
that 'as it was in the days of Noah,' so will it also be at his coming. Do you think there is anything to that?
A: I do. I don't know to what extent. I think some of the best work I've read on that is by Steven Quayle, where he shows how these particular entities in history, that we're talking about, seemed to have been power players in all the different religions around the world. If you look at it as a whole, there are really only two religions, the ones that are of Christ, and all of those that are not. He is able to show that these entities have been behind all of those other ones that are not of Christ.
Q: Now also among the schools of thought about these aliens, some people believe that it doesn't matter if they're angelic, demonic, ET, but they believe they are actually traveling to the earth from far distances away, by advanced technology, wormholes, etc. And then there's another school of thought that believes they exist all around us in parallel dimensions. They use a portal,
a stargate, a doorway, etc. and are literally moving from one of the possibly ten dimension, into our three (or four) dimensional reality, and for that moment in time they become visible and tangible to us, and then they can move back out.
A: I believe what you're describing there is what you would refer to as a manifestation. If the research that I have, showing that people were able to stop these entities in the name and authority of Jesus Christ, along with their documented abilities that these entities have, leads us to believe that we're dealing with an inter-dimensional entity. If you're looking at scripture those were called angelic hosts, and with the messages that are coming from them, they are demonic hosts; what we're seeing is their manifestation ability. Because in scripture you're able to see the abilities of God's angels. Science likes to say there are a number of dimensions, but as a Christian looking at scripture we know there are two: there is the spiritual dimension, then there's the physical dimension; and they live in the spiritual dimension, but they have the ability to manifest into the physical. Scripture shows us that. And these fallen angels I believe have the same abilities as God's good angels, just with a different purpose - an evil purpose. And this is something we do see in the abduction experience where these people have seen these entities actually appear, and then actually disappear. And we're seeing that ability; that's not an ET biological entity ability. This is something that's coming from another dimension and manifesting to this dimension. I believe that if this is what it's showing, that these are what is called angels in scripture, then, no, they're not from out there. They're from right here. And they're all around us all the time, and the deception that we're seeing here is their manifestation coming across in the facade of the ET, because that's something they want us to believe in.
Q: In this field of study there are basically two primary things that turn up. It's the aliens, the 'pilots' of the UFO crafts; and then there's the UFO craft itself. You have two separate things. Some people believe it isn't two separate things; it's just simply the way that these things are manifesting themselves. In other words, the craft is the spirit; the spirit is the craft. A couple of years ago during the 60th anniversary of the Roswell event, we interviewed Stanton Friedman, who is convinced that there was a tangible craft - an actual craft - that was recovered. Have you looked into that part of the Roswell event and do you believe that there was an actual craft that
would be extraordinary, in other words it wasn't a weather balloon; it was something unearthly? It wasn't built by the Russians or us; it was something tangible and yet not of this world? Do you have any thoughts on that?
A: I have looked into that, and continue to look into that, and that is such a research mess going on there. We're seeing so much misinformation going on, besides good information, so it's hard to sort it out. I know these guys are trying real hard to get answers.
Q:Could it be that these entities left something behind for this event?
A: It's a possibility. I do leave that open, that they could have left something, and one of the best descriptions of Roswell that I ever heard was back in 2003 at Roswell, and I was listening to Richard Hoagland - just a group of us standing around talking - and somebody asked him what he thought of the Roswell event? It's not his type of research, but he did make a unique statement that I'll never forget. He felt that what he knew about the research into the Roswell event was a Trojan Horse. I thought that was most profound. [So do I.] In other words, that whole event was a setup by these entities - to perpetuate this deception. And what we're seeing here is, I believe, whatever it takes to get you to believe that these entities are really aliens.
Q: What's so interesting is that when I asked you that question, what I had written down was 'Trojan Horse,' ... and if you didn't go there, I was going to ask you if you thought that could be a possibility. Great minds think alike! As far as I know this is the first time in such studies that this kind of analytical duplication - where you're using guidelines for redundancy - has been
employed in this way, because this (talking about Jordan's new book) is a methodology that's similar to what scientists or investigators would use to illustrate repeatability. And as I was reading your book, this is what kept standing out to me, because in science this is how you make your case, how you get something peer-reviewed, is that you repeat it over and over again, and therefore you can get what's called 'cause and effect.' You're using scientific methodology to try to prove something, a pattern to something that is otherwise extraordinary, and in this case it has to do with abduction and deliverance, in which the name of Jesus Christ emerges in a way that you said earlier, no other name ... it's not a magic formula. It really comes down to a matter of faith, and when you're a part of the body of Christ, you then do have an authority and evidently that authority extends to whatever theses things are, according to your research. [I agree.]
A: Some people could be dealing with medications, with sleep paralysis, you can't go into looking for demons behind every bush. Some could be dealing with mental issues, and all of those things must be considered before it gets down to what I believe is a spiritual event.
Q: Any final comments?
A: I would say that the one thing that I'm having the biggest trouble with in all the years is getting people to look at the evidence for itself. I want people to not trust me, but to look at the evidence and trust that. It's free to be looked at on www.CD4research.com
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COMMENT: After studying the spirit world and UFOs for almost 40 years, I believe this guy has hit the nail right on the head. This, in my opinion, is exactly the true situation and explanation of UFOs - including the idea that the 'craft' at Roswell was a Trojan Horse scenario.
Royal Heir
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