An Evaluation of Muslim Dreams & Visions of Isa (Jesus)

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Introductory comments by David James of The Alliance For Biblical Integrity HERE.

Recently, I was asked by another Bible teacher about my views concerning reports coming out of the Muslim world that many Muslims have been having visions and dreams of Isa (“Jesus” in Arabic) – and as a result, that many – perhaps tens of thousands – are coming to saving faith in Him.

I have been aware of these stories for a number of years, but until a couple of weeks ago, I hadn’t done much research into the matter. My studies led me to a very well-written article by Dennis McBride, in which he addresses the major issues surrounding these reports in a clear and thoroughly biblical manner.

I have reproduced the article here (by permission of the author) not only because I agree with his conclusions, but because I also very much appreciate his biblical exposition, his apologetic approach, and the irenic spirit with which he has handled this often-controversial subject. It is a lengthy article, but well worth the time investment.

Dennis McBride is the pastor of Bethany Bible Church in Lake Havasu City, AZ. He also holds the distinction of being one of just four “National Yo-Yo Grand Masters” as named by the National Yo-Yo Museum and has toured nationally and internationally with his unique skill. You can find out more at his Yo-Yo Master website. Comments concerning this article may be directed to Pastor McBride at dcjmcbride@msn.com.  

You can also find Pastor McBride’s personal statement of faith (which is also a very well-written and thoroughly biblical document) at the following link: McBride Doctrinal Statement

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An Evaluation of Muslim Dreams & Visions of Isa (Jesus)

by Dennis McBride, July, 2010

My Goal: The goal of this paper is to evaluate the reported phenomenon of Jesus (Isa) appearing to some Muslims in dreams and visions [1. For the sake of brevity, I will hereafter refer to the phenomenon simply as “Muslim dreams”.], and to discern if such reports fit the pattern of Scripture as determined through conservative grammatical/historical principles of interpretation (hermeneutics).

My Concerns: I first became aware of the Muslin dreams phenomenon through a Christian brother who spoke with great excitement about a special moving of the Lord within Muslim communities. I wanted to share his excitement because I knew something of the difficulties of Muslim evangelism, and the great  joy missionaries experience over even one Muslim coming to faith in Christ. However, over the course of our conversations my questions and concerns started to mount.

In short, I questioned if it was really Jesus appearing to these people, and if so, why? What special circumstances at this point in redemptive history would necessitate Him personally intervening, when He said it would be the Holy Spirit’s role to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment through the preaching of the gospel by human preachers (John 16:8; Rom 10:14-15; 1 Cor 1:21)?

I had no desire to resist or even question what God might be doing, but I feared these dreams of Isa might be little more than extra-biblical psychological or spiritual encounters that could supplant God’s Word and potentially lead their participants away from biblical authority rather than into it. And I was greatly concerned to hear the supposedly biblical rationale some of my fellow conservative Bible teachers were offering in defense of this movement. Some former defenders of the centrality and sufficiency of God’s Word in evangelism seemed suddenly to be sacrificing that doctrine on the altar of subjective mystical encounters. I needed to understand why, and to evaluate their rationale by God’s Word. I also needed to examine Isa’s communication to determine if it was consistent with Christ’s communication while He was on earth.

My Prayer: I rejoice that many Muslims are coming to faith in Christ, and I pray the Lord will send many more laborers into those fields. However, as Christians we have a mandate to guard God’s Word with all diligence and to test all claims of divine communication (1 Thess 5:20-21; Acts 17:11). This study is an attempt to do that.

Throughout this study I raise a number of questions about various aspects of this phenomenon, and I welcome reader responses, whether they agree or disagree with my conclusions. I also welcome input on aspects I may have overlooked, but need to consider.

My Conclusion: This study concludes that the biblical support offered for the Muslim dreams phenomenon, when evaluated within the context of Scripture, does not, in fact, support the phenomenon. Therefore, I conclude that these dreams and visions lack biblical authority and must therefore be viewed as extra-biblical experiences generated from sources other than the Holy Spirit.
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Four Representative Descriptions of the Muslim Dreams Phenomenon

The following quotes are taken from the sources footnoted and reflect the primary views in support of this phenomenon.

Description #1 – We are now hearing many stories of people coming to faith in Christ as the result of a dream or vision where He appears to them, inviting them to trust in Him. This is particularly happening in the Muslim world. Many people instantly know it’s the Lord Jesus when He appears to them, but some do not. In some dreams and visions, He tells them who He is, and in others He does not—He just loves them and calls them to come to Him. After the dream/vision, the Lord provides someone to identify Him as they continue to seek Him. (We see something similar in the story of Cornelius in Acts 10.)

So, from what I understand, people are putting their trust in Christ, but some don’t know anything more about Him than that He is God, He loves them and He invites them to trust in Him. Two recurrent invitations continue to appear in the dreams and visions we are hearing about: 1) “I am the way, the truth and the life,” and 2) “You belong to Me.” As people are then able to get a copy of the Bible or talk to a Christian, their knowledge of Christ, the Cross, and the Christian life grows, as well as their faith and their understanding of who Jesus is and what He did.

For years, I have heard that God’s only plan for evangelism is for us to share the gospel. But these stories show that sometimes, Jesus goes directly to a person. And, in Revelation 14:6, there is an angel who takes the gospel to men.

So what that means is that if a person has never heard of Jesus through the preaching of the gospel, that is no obstacle for God. He can, and testimony shows that He does, appear directly to—and call a person to—have faith in Him. We still need to diligently pursue the Great Commission and take the gospel to all nations, since evangelism through the changed lives of Christ-followers is still God’s main plan. But God’s hands are not tied by our inability (or laziness, or selfishness, or disobedience) to get the gospel to everyone He has chosen for eternal life. [2. Sue Bohlin, What About the Person Who Never Heard of Jesus?, Probe Ministries, www.probe.org.] 

Description #2 – There are many ways that people who have grown up and lived their lives in the Western part of the world will differ from the person who has grown up in the Eastern part of the world. Their foods differ. Their clothing differs. These things are mostly accepted and understood, but that same sort of understanding must continue to be brought to the forefront with regard to views on the supernatural.

Dreams and visions have been a known reality especially within the region we now know as the Middle East dating back to the days of Joseph. Both the Bible and the Qur’an document the stories of Joseph and his interpretation of dreams, not to mention the vision he was given. God was moving through dreams and visions then and He continues to speak through them today. Likewise, there is no reason not to believe that he will speak through them in the future. Instead, the words of Joel once again serve as a reminder that old men will “dream dreams” and young men will “see visions.”

In lands where people have never seen the words of God in written form and they may not even know how to read at all, God is still speaking to them and revealing Himself to them through dreams and visions. Within the lives of people so entrenched in the rituals and structure of Islam, God is breaking through with dreams and visions. In societies that are already open to the reality of the supernatural, God is showing himself to be a power above all powers, a name above all names. In the still of the night or the calm of a moment, God is using a form of communication that is not new, but instead echoes through generations. It is not the only way for Him to reach them, but case after case shows that it is one way. Missionaries have a choice to either ignore the reality or dare to believe and ask that God would invade their friends’ dreams, too, and reveal the truth of Jesus Christ to them as he has done in the lives of countless individuals.[3. Good News for the Crescent World, Dreams and Visions in the World of Folk Islam: Could These be a Pathway to Jesus Christ?, http://www.gnfcw.com/image/dreams_and_visions.pdf.] 

Description #3 – The visions or dreams we are discussing, and as documented in Muslim countries and elsewhere, come on two occasions. First, they come as heralds of the gospel, to non-believers. . . They open the eyes, point to, or start the search for the gospel message that is to come in its fullness. It is not the gospel itself, which only comes through the word of God, written, or shared by a follower of Jesus either in person or over the radio and such. Think of Cornelius, who received a vision but was presented the gospel by Peter.

Once the gospel is received, the dreams stop. They do not return until and only if there is a great need for spiritual ministering such as under torture or martyrdom. They may, but not always, return under those circumstances as a vision of the waiting glory to come. Think of Steven. This is the pattern that missionaries see and the pattern that is seen in Scripture. . . [The dreams and visions] are not ongoing and indiscriminate in their nature and never add to the canon. They are given to nonbelievers in the first instance and to spiritually needy believers in the second instance.[4. Former Missions Chairman of a conservative evangelical church. I cite this unpublished source because it’s a concise summary of the supposed biblical support for Muslim dreams.] 

Description #4 – Just as God used a vision to convert Paul, in like manner He reveals Himself to Muslims through dreams. Just as God prepared Cornelius to hear the Gospel through a vision, so God is preparing a multitude of Muslims to respond to His good news.[5. Rick Love, Muslims, Magic and the Kingdom of God (Pasadena, William Carey Library, 2000), 156.] __________

Primary Considerations

Below are the primary considerations in this issue, most of which are reflected in one or more of the descriptions quoted above. I will address them in question and answer format.
1. Should we question an experience that may help lead someone to faith in Christ?
2. Is this a secondary doctrinal issue?
3. Are we to test the message or the messenger?
4. Does this phenomenon constitute ongoing revelation?
5. Can God communicate the gospel supernaturally?
6. Is this phenomenon consistent with the Holy Spirit’s convicting role?
7. Does the church’s failure to evangelize Muslims necessitate Jesus’ personal intervention?
8. What did Jesus say about His future appearances?
9. Does Scripture encourage expectations of personal visitations from Jesus?
10. Is Isa’s message consistent with Scripture?
11. Are New Testament visions a pattern for Muslim dreams?
12. Does Joel 2:28 support the Muslim dreams phenomenon?
13. If Jesus isn’t appearing in these dreams, who is?
14. Are there cultural considerations that might shed light on this phenomenon?

1. Should we question an experience that helps lead someone to faith in Christ?

Why make an issue of how Muslims come to faith in Christ, as long as they come to faith? And doesn’t the fact that they come to faith legitimize the means by which they come? Those are fair questions, and the most concise answers are: 1) God commands us to be discerning in all things 2) the end doesn’t justify the means if the means fail the test of Scripture, and 3) this isn’t merely an experience; it is a significant spiritual movement based on subjective mystical encounters that must have objective biblical support before they can be classified as truly Christian. Testing what claims to be from God is every Christian’s responsibility (1 Thess 5:20-21; 1 John 4:1-3), and exercising caution about claims of Jesus speaking personally to Muslims is as important as exercising caution about any reports of divine communication beyond the text of Scripture itself. In Acts 17:11, God commends the Bereans for putting the gospel itself to the test. But testing Muslim dreams is more difficult by far than testing the gospel because the gospel is a singular, cohesive, objective entity, which is readily affirmed by direct biblical support, whereas these personal dreams are numerous, varied, subjective, and virtually impossible to test fully due to their extra-biblical content.

2. Is this a secondary doctrinal issue?

It has been argued that the fact of Muslims coming to Christ is so significant that the means by which they come is inconsequential. Therefore, to question the validity of dreams and visions is to miss the point and to nitpick over “secondary doctrines” when we should be rejoicing over God’s grace toward these people. However, examining claims of Jesus appearing to Muslims does not diminish the value of Muslim converts. Just as God calls us to evangelize the lost and rejoice in their salvation, He also calls us to guard His Word and rejoice in the truth. One is not to be set against the other by improperly juxtaposing salvation and sound doctrine.

Furthermore, claims that Jesus personally speaks to individuals today under any circumstances is not a secondary doctrinal issue by any means. Any time someone claims to have heard the voice of God, and especially if they claim to have seen Jesus, it is of utmost importance to verify what Jesus reportedly did and said.

3. Are we to test the message or the messenger?

Discerning rightly between the message and the messenger is a key component in testing this phenomenon. That is to say, we cannot conclude that Isa is who he claims to be, or who his hearers perceive him to be, simply because his message has some biblical content (i.e., Scripture verses), or because God may use those verses to help bring the dreamers to saving faith. God’s Word will accomplish its intended purposes regardless of the messenger. That’s why Paul could rejoice even when men, who wanted nothing more than to cause him grief, proclaimed Jesus (Phil 1:15-18). But even in his rejoicing Paul still exposed the sinful motives of those messengers, thereby demonstrating that the message doesn’t necessarily validate the messenger.

In Gal 1:8, where Paul’s focus is primarily on the message, he also addresses the messengers, and does so in the strongest possible language: “Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.” That’s a hypothetical scenario involving a false message, but coupled with Phil 1:15-18 it shows the need to test both message and messenger, and to reject the “end-justifies-the-means” approach to the Muslim dreams phenomenon offered by some of its advocates (i.e., “people are getting saved, therefore it must be Jesus appearing to them”).

As important as the messengers are, the power of the gospel to redeem souls is not dependent on their identity or credibility. Therefore, one can rejoice in Muslim conversions while still expressing concerns about the messenger, especially since the Isa of Muslim dreams isn’t simply calling Muslims to believe in the Jesus of the Bible; he is calling them to believe in him (Isa) – therefore claiming to be God and worthy of their worship.

That is one of my primary concerns with this phenomenon. To believe in the Jesus of the Bible is one thing; to believe in the “Jesus” of one’s dreams is quite another. Muslims who are “coming to Jesus” are equating the two, as are many who minister to Muslims and who pray Isa will appear to more Muslims so more will be “saved.” Therefore, it may be even more important to discern between this messenger and his message than in either of Paul’s two examples cited above. Paul’s were messengers with false motives or false messages; Isa is a messenger claiming to be God![6. See #9 below for an examination of Isa’s message.]

 4. Does this phenomenon constitute ongoing revelation?

Some supporters of Muslim dreams also affirm that divine revelation ceased with the completion of the canon of Scripture. They see no contradiction in those positions because they don’t view these dreams as ongoing revelation. Isa, they say, isn’t adding to Scripture; he’s merely reiterating what has already been revealed (i.e., Scripture verses and biblical principles).

A Doctrinal Contradiction: However, the doctrine that revelation ceased with the apostolic era affirms that Christians have no message from God apart from the text of Scripture.[7. C.f. The Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics, Article XXV: “We deny that the preacher has any message from God apart from the text of Scripture” in Explaining Hermeneutics: A Commentary on the Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics. Oakland, California: International Council on Biblical Inerrancy, 1983 (http://www.bible- researcher.com/chicago2.html).] In other words, Scripture alone is God’s verbal communication to mankind, which excludes all other supposed communication from Him, including Jesus speaking in contemporary dreams and visions. Therefore, one can’t affirm the cessation of divine revelation while also affirming that Jesus is personally communicating with Muslims (or anyone else). These are mutually exclusive views.

A Divine Encounter: Claiming that these dreams aren’t intended to add to Scripture doesn’t change the fact that they are appeals to divine revelation. Content aside, the encounter itself, if true, is revelatory. It is God revealing Himself personally beyond His self-disclosure in Scripture. Therefore, any personal encounter with God is rightly considered ongoing revelation.

New Messages from Jesus: Additionally, in Muslim dreams Isa is reportedly communicating not only Bible verses, but also messages of encouragement, instruction, exhortation, prophecies, and other information not included in Scripture. That is ongoing (or additional) revelation, especially since it reportedly comes from God Himself. Granted, it’s not intended to be canonized, but it is divine revelation nonetheless. When Jesus Himself speaks, how can it be anything less than authoritative divine revelation? Far from being non-revelatory, these hundreds of appearances of Isa suggest a contemporary period of divine revelation rivaling the New Testament era itself.

5. Can God communicate the gospel supernaturally?

Does Scripture disallow Jesus (post-ascension) personally communicating to unbelievers to prepare them to receive the gospel? That’s a fair question, but I think the more appropriate question is: where does Scripture teach that He will do that? And do the biblical accounts of visions serve as parallels or patterns for what is occurring today in some Muslim communities?

Could God Do It? Before answering those questions, I want to comment on the hypothetical question of whether God could communicate His gospel apart from human instrumentality if He chose to do so. The answer, of course, is yes, He could. However, He has already decreed both the end and the means of salvation, and has revealed His decree in Scripture. The end is that all the elect will be saved and none lost (John 6:39-40); the means is through faith in Christ in response to the Spirit-empowered gospel proclaimed by human instrumentality (e.g., Matt 28:19-20; Acts 2:36-40; Rom 1:16; 10:13-15).

Jesus personally communicating the gospel at this point in redemptive history would be outside His revealed decree, and would therefore be a highly exceptional situation. That raises the questions of what aspects of Muslim evangelism constitute a highly exceptional situation that would require God to work outside His revealed decree, and is there clear Scriptural support for Him doing so? I will answer those questions below as I examine the texts used to support Isa’s appearances.

6.  Is this phenomenon consistent with the Holy Spirit’s convicting role?

Toward the end of His earthly ministry, Jesus told His disciples He had to leave so the Holy Spirit could come. And He told them the Spirit would convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and would guide people into all truth. He would also reveal the things of Christ, impart illumination and saving faith, and regenerate human hearts (cf. John 16:5-15; 1 Cor 1:12-16).

We know from Romans 1:18-20 and 2:14-15 that general revelation (i.e., external creation and internal conscience) is God’s self-revelation to everyone; that’s why all are without excuse and accountable before Him (Rom 2:20; 3:9). Also, general revelation is how He pre-conditions His elect to the gospel. Those who by grace respond to general revelation receive additional (special) revelation through God’s Word and the Spirit’s ministry. Why then is it necessary for Jesus to make personal appearances to prepare someone to receive the gospel when that is the specific role of the Holy Spirit?

All unbelievers are equally lost and can be saved only if they hear the gospel and then the Father grants them faith (John 6:65), draws them (John 6:44), opens their hearts to the truth (Acts 16:14), and teaches them (John 6:45). That’s how every former unbeliever comes to faith. There is no unbelief that is beyond the reach of the Holy Spirit’s convicting work and which would additionally require personal visitations from Jesus to convince it of the truth of the gospel.

7. Does the church’s failure to evangelize Muslims necessitate Jesus’ personal intervention?

Some say that Jesus must intervene personally because the church has failed to evangelize Muslims. However, that could be said of any people group in any area at any time in church history, and even of individuals in our own culture who haven’t heard the gospel because a Christian friend failed to share it. If that were the case, dreams and visions would be commonplace.

Perhaps the church has failed in some measure to evangelize Muslims, and I pray that Christians will be increasingly active in reaching out to them. But the third description of this phenomenon cited above echoes a common assertion that the dreams and visions “open the eyes, point to, or start the search for the gospel message that is to come in its fullness. It is not the gospel itself, which only comes through the word of God, written, or shared by a follower of Jesus either in person or over the radio and such.”

That description argues against failure on the part of the church to reach out to Muslims. If Muslims are receiving the gospel that can only come through God’s Word, written or shared by a follower of Jesus, then of necessity Christians are involved in the process. So despite any evangelistic deficiencies within the church, it appears God is still linking Muslims with Christians, either directly or indirectly, to help get the job done.

However, my main point here is that failure on the church’s part does not necessitate Jesus personally intervening through dreams and visions, because it is the Holy Spirit’s role to direct the elect to the gospel and the gospel to the elect. Could the Spirit prompt unredeemed elect individuals to dream about Jesus and use those dreams to open their hearts to the gospel? Of course He could. But that’s not what’s being claimed. To have a dream about Jesus, even a Spirit-directed dream, is different from Jesus revealing Himself in a dream. One is natural; the other is supernatural. One is a natural dream; the other is a divine revelation. Those distinctions must be understood and maintained.

8. What did Jesus say about His future appearances?

Immediately after Jesus ascended into heaven, two men in white said to the onlookers, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). And when He does come to earth again, it will be “in the glory of His Father with His angels” (Matt 16:27). Jesus warned about believing claims to any supposed appearances prior to that time (Matt 24).

Those passages refer specifically to Christ’s physical return to earth at some future point in time, but do they also preclude Him appearing in dreams or visions prior to that time? We can’t answer that question conclusively from those texts, but we can conclude that the only teaching Jesus gave concerning His future appearances on earth relate to His physical return. Therefore, we are not free to conclude that other appearances are permissible unless Scripture elsewhere permits us to do so. With that in mind, I will briefly discuss the relevant New Testament “visions” passages below (see #11) to see if they give a green light to modern-day appearances of Jesus in dreams or visions.

9. Does Scripture encourage expectations of personal visitations from Jesus?

Faith based on God’s Word (spoken or written), not personal divine visitations, has been the biblical requirement and standard since the birth of the church.[8. Cases such as Paul, Cornelius, and Steven are directly related to the unique Apostolic era, as discussed in section #11 below.] In fact, with the exception of Paul on the road to Damascus, there is no biblical record of Jesus appearing to any unbeliever following His ascension. And Scripture nowhere encourages or even suggests praying for divine appearances as an evangelism strategy or a means of comforting persecuted Christians during the church age. That is utterly foreign to Scripture. Yet the challenges to propagate this phenomenon continue:

“Missionaries have a choice to either ignore the reality [of Muslim dreams] or dare to believe and ask that God would invade their friends’ dreams, too, and reveal the truth of Jesus Christ to them as he has done in the lives of countless individuals” (italics added).[9. Good News for the Crescent World, Dreams and Visions in the World of Folk Islam: Could These be a Pathway to Jesus Christ?, http://www.gnfcw.com/images/dreams_and_visions.pdf.]

It is important to note that Jesus Himself commended those who believed without seeing Him (John 20:24-29)[10. Jesus said to Thomas, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."], and He corrected the erroneous thinking that a personal appearance of one who has died is more persuasive than hearing God’s Word (Luke 16:19-31).[11. In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells the story of the rich man & Lazarus. While suffering torment in Hades, the rich man begged Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his five brothers so they wouldn’t end up there too. Abraham responded, “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.” The rich man replied, “No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!” But Abraham said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.” (vv. 29-31). That text alone should erase any question about the sufficiency of God’s Word in bringing the lost to salvation apart from any miraculous encounter or mystical experience.] Peter, too, commended believers who loved the Lord without having seen Him (1 Pet 1:3-9). That is normal Christian faith. Additionally, there are no instructions or regulating principles in the Pastoral Epistles regarding dreams or visions (with the exception of the Col 2:18-19 warning about false teachers who take their stand on such experiences), whereas there are numerous and detailed instructions for teaching, preaching, and guarding “the sacred writings which are able to give . . . the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim 3:15; see also 1 Tim 4:13-16; 2 Tim 4:1-4; Titus 1:9-11).

10. Is Isa’s message consistent with Scripture?

If Jesus were appearing to unbelieving Muslims, it follows that His message would be consistent with His message to unbelievers while on earth. But that is not the case.

What Isa Reportedly Says: As I read the various accounts of dreams, I am struck with the impossibility of testing them according to Scripture because their extra-biblical content is so extensive and varied. Many of the dreams contain a verse or two of Scripture, along with encouragement to seek the Savior spoken of in the verses. In many, Isa either identifies himself as Jesus or is assumed to be Jesus by the dreamers.

Reportedly, some of the dreamers had no prior exposure to the Bible or the gospel, but most of the accounts I have read indicate the dreamers had some prior exposure to the Bible and/or Christians. Other accounts don’t comment on that aspect of the story.

Most of the content of the dreams relates generally to the circumstances of the various dreamers (e.g., encouragement in trials or rescue from danger, which are common themes). That kind of content cannot be tested by Scripture except by broad measurements such as “does it encourage faith in Christ?” or “is it generally consistent with biblical principles?” But those are vague and inadequate tests for determining the divine origin of a dream or vision, as I will explain below.

What Isa Doesn’t Say: I am most struck by what Isa doesn’t say in the accounts I have read. Although the encounters are said to prepare the dreamers for the gospel, there is little or no mention of sin, repentance, confession, righteousness, or forgiveness–and no presentation of God’s holiness or justice. Simply put, the need for salvation is not clarified (or in some cases even mentioned), yet that was at the heart of Christ’s communication with unbelievers when He was on earth. But Isa’s “gospel” is minimalistic and void of any clear and concise call to repentance. Gospel clarity and precision would be especially important for those Muslims who do not have a biblical background to draw from and who would therefore need to understand what God requires of them.

Does Isa Pass the Test? Jesus used a variety of approaches when speaking with unbelievers, depending on the individual or group (e.g., Nicodemus, the “Rich Young Ruler,” the “Woman at the Well”), but typically, He identified who He was, confronted their sin, called them to repentance, called them to believe in Him, cautioned them to count the cost of discipleship, and then to take up their crosses daily and follow Him. He didn’t state all those elements in every case, but collectively they constituted the thrust of His message.

By way of contrast, Isa typically identifies who he is (or the dreamer instinctively knows who he is), and tells the dreamer he loves him and wants him (the dreamer) to follow him (Isa). Sometimes the dreamer is overwhelmed with a sense of love and peace just by being in Isa’s presence (which was never the case with unbelievers in the presence of Jesus). So the message that emerges is one of believing in Isa and following him apparently apart from the Holy Spirit convicting of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8).

That is the pattern I see throughout the accounts I have read. Consequently, I question the substance of the message Isa is delivering, and the substance of the gospel some of these Muslims are affirming. That is not to say their conversions aren’t genuine, especially given the fuller gospel presentation that some receive subsequent to their initial dreams. But, it is to say that the message Isa is giving falls short of the message Jesus typically gave to unbelievers while on earth. That shortcoming is a major point of consideration in discerning if this really is Jesus speaking to these people.

Again, I understand the assertion that Isa isn’t sharing the gospel but is merely preparing dreamers for the gospel that is to come in greater fullness via a human evangelist. But I still question the inconsistencies between Jesus’ preparation of unbelievers while on earth and Isa’s preparation via dreams. Also, in some of the accounts I’ve read, Isa does, in fact, call on the dreamers to believe in him. So the claim that he merely prepares them to receive the gospel isn’t always consistent with the testimony record.

Additionally, I have to wonder why Jesus wouldn’t share the gospel with Muslims if He were appearing to them. He is the most capable and powerful evangelist the world has ever known. Yes, Rom 10:13-15 says salvation comes by hearing the gospel preached by a human, and that is part of the divine decree I mentioned above. But those who affirm that Jesus is appearing to Muslims also affirm by implication that God is not confined to His own decree in these instances, so why would the human evangelist be necessary at all except in a follow-up capacity?

11. Are New Testament visions a pattern for Muslim dreams?

Descriptive or Prescriptive? One task of an interpreter of Scripture is to determine if a passage is descriptive or prescriptive. In other words, does the passage describe what occurred in the past, or does it prescribe what will or should occur in the future, or both? For example, determining if the Acts chapter two account of the Day of Pentecost only describes what did occur as a unique event in the history of the church, or whether it also prescribes a pattern for what should occur in each believer’s life, will determine one’s position on Pentecostalism. Determining whether Paul’s teachings on the role of women were descriptive of the culture of his day or prescriptive for every culture will determine one’s position on the role of women in the church today.

Similarly, determining if the accounts of biblical visions describe what did occur during a unique time in revelatory and/or redemptive history, or whether they also prescribe a pattern for what should occur today will, in large part, determine one’s position on the current Muslim phenomenon. So with that in mind, I will briefly examine the New Testament accounts used in support of the Muslim dreams phenomenon.

Consider the Context: I should first mention that in support of Muslim dreams, their advocates often cite the occurrences of similar phenomenon in Scripture. And without question God did use dreams and visions on occasion in both the Old and New Testaments when they served His purposes. But we must consider not only the fact of their use in Scripture, but also the reasons for their use and the historical and redemptive contexts in which they were used. If those considerations have contemporary parallels in the Muslim phenomenon, then it may have biblical support. If they don’t have parallels, the phenomenon is not “just as” or “in like manner” as the biblical accounts (to quote Rick Love), and therefore lacks direct biblical support.

I will confine my examination to the New Testament visions to which appeal has been made in support of the Muslim dreams phenomenon, or that help us evaluate that phenomenon. Those passages are:
a. Acts 7:55-56 – Stephen’s vision of heaven
b. Acts 9:1-10 – God’s visions to Paul and Ananias
c. Acts 10:3 – The vision to Cornelius to send for Peter in Joppa
d. Acts 10:9 – Peter’s visions of the “sheet” and animals
e. Acts 10:19 – Peter is “thinking about the vision” and the Spirit interrupts him
f. Acts 16:6 – Paul’s vision of the “man of Macedonia” beckoning him to come there
g. Acts 18:9 – Jesus speaks to Paul in a vision to encourage him to keep preaching
h. 2 Corinthians 12:1 – Paul says he had momentous visions
i. Revelation 1:9-17 – John’s vision of the ascended and glorified Christ
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A Brief Examination of Those Visions:

a. Acts 7:55-56 – Stephen – “Being full of the Holy Spirit, [Stephen] gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’”

Stephen was a man “full of grace and power”, who “was performing great wonders and signs among the people” (Acts 6:8). His vision of heaven, while facing martyrdom, followed his powerfully and confrontational sermon to the Jewish Council, and is often offered as a pattern for the dreams and visions some Muslims experience during similar trials. But to my knowledge Stephen was the only New Testament saint to have a vision of Christ or heaven just prior to his death. So Stephen serves as an example of how God can comfort His children during martyrdom, but does not establish a pattern for Him doing so either then or now.

Unique Apostolic Period: More importantly, although Stephen was not an apostle per se, he ministered in the power of the Holy Spirit during the apostolic period, which was a unique transitional period in which God was giving new revelation through His messengers, and confirming the messengers and the message by miraculous signs and wonders (Acts 6:8; Heb 2:3-4; 2 Cor 12:12). Those signs and wonders, as well as the personal revelations, were directly linked to the birth of the church, to apostolic preaching, and to the inspiration of the New Testament Scriptures.

Those events and that period of time have no parallel in church history, so their context cannot be duplicated. Therefore, the experiences of Steven and his apostolic companions must be viewed as descriptive unless Scripture indicates otherwise. That is a point to which I will return frequently in the considerations that follow because the contexts that reveal God communicating one-on-one to His messengers also reveal His reasons for doing so. And those reasons were directly linked to non-repeatable historical and revelatory events. So it isn’t exegetically permissible to pull an experience like Steven’s vision out of its context and place it into a context of contemporary Muslim dreams without a more definitive biblical rationale.

New Testament Pattern for Persecution: I praise the Lord for encouraging and undergirding His children during times of persecution or martyrdom, and I certainly do not question His ability to do that. Although Stephen’s vision was unique and therefore does not serve as a pattern or norm, Scripture does give us a pattern for dealing with persecution:

In this [your eternal inheritance] you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls (1 Pet 1:6-9, italics added. See also Rom 5:1-5; James 1:2-4).

In that passage Peter makes it clear that “the revelation of Jesus Christ” was yet future for those believers, and that the fiery testing of their faith, apart from any visions or appearances of Jesus, was what produced faith like pure gold, which would result in praise, glory and honor to Christ

That is the New Testament pattern for discerning God’s will in persecution, which does not eliminate the possibility of Jesus appearing to persecuted Christians today, but it does raise the question of what it is about today’s persecutions that would prompt Jesus to appear when He did not do so even in Peter’s time when the church was relatively young and Christians were being severely persecuted and definitely in need of encouragement?

b. Acts 9:1-10 – God’s visions to Paul and Ananias concerning Ananias’ healing ministry to the newly converted Paul.

Paul described this experience as “a heavenly vision” (Acts 26:19) even though it included time-space manifestations, some of which were also witnessed by his companions (Acts 9:7). Apparently Paul did not see Jesus Himself, but saw “a light brighter than the sun” (Acts 26:13) and heard Jesus’ voice (Acts 9:3-4ff; 26:14ff).

This was an encounter wherein Jesus personally called an unbeliever to faith. But this, of course, was no ordinary unbeliever, and the unique apostolic ministry to which Paul was being called makes this encounter utterly unique and directly related to the canonical revelation that was to follow. Does Paul’s vision establish a pattern for contemporary Muslim dreams as Rick Love and others assert? The fact that Paul had a “vision” is similar, but the reason for that vision has no modern parallel because it was linked inextricably to Paul’s apostolic calling, divine revelation, and the future disclosure of God’s Word.

The same is true of Ananias’ vision, which apparently involved hearing the Lord’s voice but not seeing Him. His vision was directly linked to Paul’s, and therefore it, too, has no direct modern parallel. Both of those accounts are descriptive of what happened in the past, but not prescriptive of what should happen in the future.

c. Acts 10:3 – The vision to Cornelius to send for Peter in Joppa. (See notes under Acts 10:19 below.)

d. Acts 10:9 – As the messengers arrive from Cornelius, Peter falls into a trance and has the three visions of a “sheet” of animals coming down from heaven; this is the divine lesson that teaches him to accept the gentiles as co-participants in at least certain aspects of the Abrahamic covenant. (See notes under Acts 10:19 below.)

e. Acts 10:19 – Peter is “thinking about the vision” and the Spirit interrupts him.

The visions Peter and Cornelius experienced are often cited as patterns for Isa preparing unbelieving Muslims to receive the gospel from Christian evangelists. But Peter and Cornelius aren’t a pattern even for New Testament evangelism, much less modern-day evangelism. Theirs was a unique situation in which the Lord drew them together supernaturally for a specific purpose that has no parallel today or in any other period of church history.

Further, there is no correlation between Cornelius’ experience and Muslim unbelievers whom Isa is reportedly preparing to receive the gospel. Cornelius was not an unbeliever, but “a devout man, and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people, and prayed to God continually” (Acts 10:1-2). He did not see Jesus, but an angel (Acts 10:3, 7, 30-31) and was then directed by the Holy Spirit to send for Peter (Acts 10:20). Cornelius’ vision was clearly revelatory and intended to be included in the canon of Scripture (as were Peter’s).

But beyond those dissimilarities is the unique role their visions played in redemptive and revelatory history. Peter’s visions were intended to teach him that God was including gentiles in His covenant promises. Peter represented Jewish believers to whom the gospel was entrusted, and through whom it was first proclaimed following Christ’s Ascension. He also represented apostolic authority. Cornelius represented gentiles, who were previously outside the covenant (cf. Eph 2:11-12) but who were now to be included.

Given the animosity between Jews and gentiles, and the other Jew/gentile dynamics present at that time, Peter and his apostolic companions needed to know that God was including gentiles in the covenant promises (Acts 10:28-29), and that the Holy Spirit had been given to them just as He had been given to the Jews at Pentecost (Acts 10:44-48; 11:1-18). Similarly, Cornelius and his fellow gentile believers needed to know that the Apostles were God’s authoritative ambassadors of the gospel. Those mutual understandings were critical for the foundation and unity of the early church, and that’s why Peter and Cornelius had to meet face to face.

My assumption is that most Muslims are gentiles, and therefore would already be included in the covenant promises upon exercising faith in Christ. So there would be no need for God to move among them as a people group in a parallel fashion as He did with Peter and Cornelius. So there is no apparent pattern that Peter and Cornelius set for the current Muslim phenomenon. Yes, they had visions, but those visions were set in a unique and non-repeatable redemptive context.

f. Acts 16:6 – Paul’s vision of the man of Macedonia beckoning him to come there.
I have already commented on the unique nature and context of Paul’s visions, so I need not repeat myself here or in “g.” and “h.” below, except to emphasize once again that they were directly linked to apostolic authority, the birth of the church, and biblical revelation, which means they have no contemporary parallels.

g. Acts 18:9 – Jesus speaks to Paul in a vision to encourage him to keep preaching.

h. 2 Corinthians 12:1 – Paul says he had momentous visions.

i. Revelation 1:9-17 – John has a vision of the ascended and glorified Christ. It is interesting to note that John’s reaction was to “fall at His feet as a dead man” (v. 17). John knew Jesus well, and even described himself as “the disciple whom Jesus loved” (John 21:20). But when he saw Christ in His ascended glory, he fell down as if dead. That is a far cry from the reactions of Muslims who reportedly have seen Jesus in dreams and visions in which He is typically described simply as a man in a white robe who made them feel an overwhelming sense of love.

Conclusion: In light of their unique contexts I must conclude that the New Testament vision passages do not lend biblical support to contemporary Muslim dreams.

12. Does Joel 2:28 support the Muslim dreams phenomenon?

Joel 2:28 is a favorite verse for supporters of Muslim dreams because it speaks of a time when dreams and visions will be common: “And it will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.” There’s no doubt Joel prophesied that such a time would come, but are Muslim dreams part of its fulfillment?

Joel’s prophecy has elements that are difficult to interpret, but its key elements are clear and identify a time that is yet future as the time of its fulfillment. A full exegesis of that passage is beyond the scope of this paper[12. For a full treatment of Joel’s prophecy, I recommend Dr. Irvin Busenitz’s commentary, Joel and Obadiah: A Mentor Commentary, Christian Focus, or Charles L. Feinberg, The Minor Prophets, Moody Press.], but note that verse 28 begins, “and it will come about after this” (italics added), which refers back to verses 2-27. Those verses speak of events that have not yet occurred, and of a time when God will bless Israel and she will know that He is her God. Then verse 28 will occur.

Many advocates of Muslim dreams reference Pentecost and Peter’s description of the phenomenon accompanying the coming of the Holy Spirit on that occasion as initiating the era of dreams and visions prophesied by Joel – an era, they say, that will continue throughout the church age. In Acts 2:16 Peter does describe the phenomenon onlookers were witnessing at Pentecost as “what was spoken of through the prophet Joel.” He then quotes Joel 2:28-32

And it shall be in the last days,” God says, “That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even upon My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit and they shall prophesy. And I will grant wonders in the sky above, and signs on the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. And it shall be, that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Acts 2:17-21).

It is clear from the description of the cosmic signs in Joel’s prophecy that Pentecost was only a partial fulfillment of that prophecy, with its complete fulfillment yet to come. Dr. Irvin Busenitz comments:

The cosmic signs of Joel 2:30-31 (3:3-4) are significantly absent in Luke’s account of Pentecost. The sun was not darkened; the moon did not turn to blood. There is no blood, fire, or columns of smoke. Joel mentions nothing of speaking supernaturally generated foreign languages nor does Acts give evidence of supernatural dreams.[13. Irvin Busenitz, Joel and Obadiah: A Mentor Commentary, Christian Focus, p. 193.]

Nathan Busenitz adds,

If the continuationist [those who believe that the signs and wonders of the Apostolic age continue throughout the church age] is going to apply the prophecy and dreams of Joel 2 to the entire church age, he must explain why the cosmic signs of Joel 2/Acts 2 are not also a continuing part of the church age.[14.  Nathan Busenitz, Now that's the Spirit - Assessing and Addressing Evangelical Charismatics, Notes from 2006 Grace Community Church Shepherds’ Conference, p. 3.]

That’s the challenge for those who appeal to Joel 2:28 in support of Muslim dreams as well.

Dr. Irvin Busenitz continues:

Only two points of contact are found [between Joel’s prophecy and Pentecost]: God’s Spirit was poured out, and those who called upon the name of the Lord were saved. But it is these two elements of Joel’s prophecy – the Spirit poured out and salvation for those who call on the Lord – that provide the connecting link to Pentecost. They lead logically to the central focus of Peter’s sermon. Consequently, it appears best to view Joel’s prophecy as fulfilled in a preliminary fashion at the time of Pentecost, with a complete fulfillment reserved for the time surrounding the Second Advent.[15. Irvin Busenitz, Joel and Obadiah: A Mentor Commentary, Christian Focus, p. 194.]

There were no dreams or visions at Pentecost, nor did Joel indicate that Jesus would appear in dreams and visions when his prophecy was fulfilled. He speaks only of the fact of dreams and visions, not of their content. Therefore, it is incumbent upon those who defend Muslim dreams on the basis of Joel 2:28 to demonstrate more convincingly how Joel’s prophecy supports this phenomenon.

13. If Jesus isn’t appearing in these dreams, who is?

If the Isa of Muslim dreams is not the Jesus of the Bible, who is he? One option is a false Christ appearing as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:4, 13-15). But what could the enemy of our souls hope to gain from doing that? Consider this: we have already seen that people with sinful motives have preached Christ for selfish gain (Phil 1:15-18), so it is reasonable to envision the author of pride and selfishness doing the same and in the process potentially:

• Diverting worship from Christ to himself, which has been his goal from the beginning (Isa 14:12-14; Matt 4:9).

• Deceiving Muslims into thinking they are worshiping the true Jesus when, in fact, they are worshiping the person in their dreams. All the accounts I have read unquestioningly equate Isa with Jesus.

• Diluting the primacy, centrality and authority of God’s Word by establishing faith based on subjective revelations and experiences (John 20:24-29).

• Creating expectations of evangelism linked to visitations from Jesus. (Some Muslim outreach strategies now include praying that Isa will appear to even more Muslims so more will be saved.)

• Creating expectations of additional visitations from Jesus, such as during times of persecution, and the inevitable disillusionment and confusion that result when those expectations are not met.

• Causing division within the Body of Christ over this issue.

I mention those to illustrate how the enemy could benefit from a phenomenon that on the surface may seems like a kingdom divided. I have not concluded that visions of Isa are necessarily demonic, nor do I believe Muslims are not being genuinely saved. But Muslims who come to Christ do so in the same way everyone else throughout church history has: the Holy Spirit opens their hearts to the truth (Acts 16:14). But the spiritual harm that can result from connecting their faith to subjective mystical experiences can be great, as certain parallel revelatory claims of the Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements (as well as various cultic groups) have demonstrated over the years.

When it comes to personal revelations from God, the difference between the Muslim phenomenon and other revelatory claims is simply one of degree, not kind. Consequently, an experiential and mystical foundation has already been laid for the communities of former Muslims who have seen Isa and now profess faith in Christ.

14. Are there cultural considerations that might shed light on this phenomenon?

Another option to the question of who is appearing to these Muslims has to do with cultural considerations. In my research I sought the counsel of Dr. William Barrick, Professor of Old Testament at The Master’s Seminary. Dr. Barrick ministered among Muslims in Bangladesh for 15 years and offered these observations about reported appearances of Jesus to Muslim converts there:

(1) Most turned out to be pure imagination upon close questioning and examination. None had really seen him while awake—almost every single one had had some sort of dream.

(2) Muslims can be extremely susceptible to charismatic doctrine and practices, because much of folk Islam is infused with the same things seen in charismatic circles (speaking in tongues, healings, miracles, extreme emotionalism).

(3) Muslims revere special experiences and make them up in order to provide (a) a viable [in their opinion] response to those who accuse them of abandoning Islam, (b) a means of identifying with the testimony and life of persecution lived by the Apostle Paul, and (c) dreams are taken very, very seriously—about anything.

(4) Those who had dreams about Jesus seem to have all had some prior contact with Christians, the Gospel, or with the Scriptures that left an indelible impression. What was revealed in the dream had first been revealed to them in real life experience. The dreams merely replicated those experiences. The appearance of Jesus in their dreams matched exactly the appearance of Him they had seen as a child in a Christian flannel graph lesson or in some Christian literature. The verses of Scripture (John 3:16 being a favorite) in their dreams was one they had been taught or heard.[15. The Arabic translation of the Christian Scriptures dates back to about 867 AD (the Mt. Sinai Arabic Codex 151, and includes the Biblical text, marginal comments, lectionary notes, and glosses). Therefore, many Muslims have had the Bible in their language for more than 1,000 years. (c.f. http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/ codex_151.htm.] 

In an email, Dr. Barrick added, “Paul’s Epistle to the Colossians deals with those who claim special experiences (such as visions) and counters their error with the realities of the work and Person of Christ.”
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Conclusion

If Muslims were having dreams about Jesus, which resulted in opening their hearts to the gospel, I’ would say, “Praise the Lord,” because I believe the Holy Spirit can use natural dreams to convict people of their need for salvation and direct them to the gospel if He so chooses. However, the reports I’m hearing and reading claim that Jesus Himself, in the person of Isa, is appearing to Muslims in dreams. I must reject the accuracy of those claims for all the reasons outlined above, and conclude that such dreams and visions lack biblical authority and must therefore be viewed as extra-biblical experiences generated from sources other than the Holy Spirit. I must also continue to pray that the gospel of Jesus Christ, not dreams and visions of Isa, will permeate Muslim communities throughout the world for the glory of our Lord and the salvation of many precious souls.

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NOTE: I appreciate and concur with this analysis, and I am thrilled that we do still have Bible scholars and students who are biblically and spiritually equipped to give solid exegesis and application to this type of critical issue in these important times of increasing lying signs and wonders, and decreasing discernment.. CMR

UFO Disclosure/Contact, Part 12 - D. Doug Elwell (Includes Planet X)

Continuing information from a recent seminar, "Official Disclosure: Prepare For Contact," featuring top researchers, ex-government agents, world-famous field investigators, physicists and theologians. The post contains info directly from the featured speaker. Questioner is Thomas Horn. Any comments by me will be in brackets []. Very light editing done on Q&As.

Doug's educational background includes a B.A. in Cinema & Photography from Southern Illinois University, an M.A. in Communications, and an M.A. in Ancient History, both from Wheaton College (IL). Doug has worked in mass media communications since 1990, including book publishing, magazine publishing, web development, multimedia and related disciplines.

Q: I want to get your response to this spate of recent news coming out of the Royal Society. In particular, a headline about Lord Martin Rees, President of the Royal Society, and Astronomer to the Queen: "Aliens May Be Staring Us In The Face." What do you make of the current fascination that the scientific community and the world seems to have that we may be soon come into contact with off-world beings?
A: Well, I think the fascination has always been there with the supernatural. I find it interesting that it is becoming more mainstream. It seems as the culture and what has been science fiction is totally merging together. It's been very difficult to bring the scientific community kicking and screaming to the possibility of ET life, even though they themselves have been looking for it for the better part of a century, if not longer. They're finally coming to the conclusion that ET life is probably inevitable, given the huge number of stars and planets in the galaxy, just counting those we are aware of. But I also find it particular fascinating that the Christian community is involved with ETs and is including them with possibly demonic activity.

Q: You are doing research right now into something that I haven't heard any of these other people talking about, the subject of Planet X. What is Planet X?
A: It is a theoretical planet in our solar system which is only seen maybe once every couple of thousand years due to its odd elliptical orbit. It's possible that if there is life on that planet, that may explain the coming down of the ET demonics to earth to interact with mankind. We're not sure if PLanet X really exists. But this would explain the emphasis in some parts of the Bible on fallen angels coming down to earth and integrating with mankind to create giants. Occasionally these giants would make their way into the mythical record - at least twice. Once before the flood, and again during the time of Abraham and Moses. Both times there was judgment upon the earth, first the great flood which destroyed all the giants, and again during the time of Moses when the giants of Canaan were destroyed by the Israelites by God's order, because they were basically attempting to re-breed and re-create the world as it had been before the flood. They are apparently God's enemies and have been constantly at war throughout history, and much of the Bible and human history has been taken up with these wars of the gods, that have made their way into the histories and mythologies of various peoples including the Bible.

Q: Remind me of the titles of those articles that you wrote for your website, Mysterious World, that had to do specifically with the giants.
A: There was a series of four, based on the four general regions of the earth. "Giants of the Earth" dealt specifically with the giants of the ancient Near East, and the biblical descriptions of the giants all the way from the time of Adam to the time of King David and a little bit thereafter. King David and his mighty men actually ended up wiping out many of these giants, including Goliath. Goliath apparently had a number of brothers who were amongst the Philistines. In Canaan these giants were evidently the fallen angels which were at war with God. There appeared to be a kind of a proxy war going on between God and these fallen angels, on God's side through Israel and their descendants; and on Satan's side these giants were evidently modified human beings - literally hybrids of men and these fallen angels.

Q: You also wrote of about Ireland, and some of the giant myth, legend and history surrounding Ireland.
A: We went throughout all these European and American giant stories, and when we did our travel guide called "Mysterious World: Ireland" we traced some of the giants that were specific to Irish mythology and folk lore. It was quite interesting to read the histories of these giants who had personal names, histories and personalities. You don't see that much in the Bible, but in Irish folk lore many of these giants had personal names, and it was
interesting to see the magic they used to battle with each other, magic which I think was technology which we don't understand. But that was part of what these fallen angels gave to the giants. It wasn't just larger, stronger bodies. They also made them very intelligent and gave them gifts of technology. It's implied in Genesis, mainly chapter 4, where they worked metals, and also in their music; the two things that Moses focused on, because those are two of the most important technologies they were given by the fallen angels.

Q: Music, maybe because it can be a mesmerizing mechanism? You can watch stage musicians and see how they can manipulate an audience. They can influence an audience to do good or bad, just through the power of music. So why would they be teaching music? Incantations or something?
A: Possibly. I had a feeling that the implication was that music or the vibration was the tool they used to manipulate matter. There are references in Irish lore where they create transformations or possibly levitate people. We hear descriptions in some ancient stories about how certain people could use music to move giant rocks around.

Q: Does that have something maybe to do with the Great Pyramid?
A: Yes. Some people have theorized that possibly had something to do with lifting all those stones; it may have been accomplished by the use of music. So playing a song would literally cause the stones to move in a certain way, and they could be easily lifted and used to build a pyramid.

Q: One of our authors, Paddy Herrin, lives in Dublin, and he believes that these giants that were thrown down from this Planet X were the ones who built the Great Pyramid. Do you believe that?
A: Yes. I think he may be correct. I've considered that before, because he mentioned the New Jerusalem, which could be considered to be a pyramid because of the description of the shape. Most people believe it to be a square, but it could also be a pyramid. I considered the possibility based on his writings and some other thoughts I had on my own, that the Great Pyramid was built as a kind of mockery of the true pyramid in heaven, trying to emulate it on earth after they had been thrown down, but they failed to do so. But some of the tech they stole from heaven - I think they stole a lot of stuff from heaven when they were thrown down. They may have tried to recreate heaven on earth, but the pyramid was really the best they could do.

Q: I want people to be aware of your research beyond this conversation, because when they start reading the material on your websites, that's the best possible piece of your resume, showing evidence of you being a great thinker and researcher. On Planet X, when were these angels thrown down, and why?
A: My theory is that there was a war in heaven over control of the throne. I'm not sure whether the throne is actually on Planet X, or I'm thinking that Planet X is more of a gateway from the spirit realm to the physical realm, and controls the entry to heaven. So that is why there has been a battle in heaven over this planet, is my theory. And as a result it was necessary to cast Satan and the others who rebelled, down on earth and keep them trapped there so they couldn't continually try and retake Planet X for themselves and control that gateway. I recall your book about star gates and the Nephilim. I believe you theorized that the ancient Babylon was actually a star gate which was used for them to enter our world, is that correct?

Q: There could be something there. There certainly seemed to be something other than the official explanation for why we were going into Iraq. Of course, all the ancient stories involving the construction of the Tower of Babel, there did seem to be something that indicated that this character, Nimrod, didn't just pick where he constructed the Tower out of the blue. And my theory is that he was possibly being transformed into something else [through DNA tinkering], because it says that "he began to become a mighty"...and the Greek word there is gibborim (sp?) ... which we understand to be the offspring of the Nephilim. So the theory is that through these transformations the offspring of the Watchers might have been able to see into these other dimensions. Maybe this was a gateway, an opening. And there's a great deal of other extra-biblical text, and even indications in the Bible, that this might have been the case. So now, then, it changes the whole reasoning behind even why we invaded Iraq. Maybe we went there for something. Maybe there is something there in terms of technology that we don't understand. Do you think that kind of reasoning is just so far outside the box that no reasonable person would perceive it as having any legitimacy at all?
A: No. I think it's very reasonable. In fact, I believe the main reason we were in Iraq is to re-find Babylon. I think the rest of it just a ruse to get us in there with a massive military force. As you'll recall, the word Babylon actually means 'gateway of the gods.' So the idea of there being a star gate or some sort of spiritual gateway is actually central to the concept of Babylon. Now, there's no reason to control that area unless there is some sort of major reason for us to be there, and I think if there was such a reason we would want to be there to control others. [I'll never forget my amazement that the very first thing US troops went after, to secure, was the great museum. They were there within 24 hours, taking things out, and I was astonished at that priority.]

Q: Even the Sumerians' understanding of it was that it is the gate to God. But, how then, would you be connecting this to the idea of Planet X?
A: Well, I actually think it was the true heaven that they were thrown down from, and there is probably an even greater gateway there. Possibly the entry point for angels to interface between the spirit world and the
physical. That's just a recent theory. I want to try to understand why there would be such a need to control heaven. And why would there be a need to create a Babylon for a gateway; maybe literally there was a gateway there. That's why I believe it figures prominently in the creation material in the Bible. And in the end times. And interwoven with the concept of the creation was the concept of Satan being thrown down from heaven to earth, and the description of the creation of earth sounds very much like there's a near-collision with another planet, to which Planet X would answer the questions very nicely. There's no other way to describe how the moon was created from a planet roughly the size of Mars, hit earth and carved out such a huge portion of it that it remained in earth's orbit to become what is now our moon. This is an established scientific fact. That is called the "Giant Impact Theory," which is a mainstream scientific theory. In my new book I combine them with my Planet X theory, that it wasn't just some giant asteroid, but was actually a satellite of Planet X and struck earth. It accomplished several things, including creating the moon, the axial tilt in moving it into its orbit closer to the sun, and we'll go into great detail as to how this was accomplished and how this is really the only answer for how earth came to be in its present form. Because based on normal principles of solar system formation, based on what we can see, and what the Royal Society can see by observing other formative solar systems in our galaxy, the earth and some of the outer planets should not have any of the characteristics that
they display, and would require the interference of an outside object for earth to be in its present form.

Q: So we'll use the terms 'aliens' and 'angels' kind of interchangeably here because in your mind aliens, angels, we're talking really about the same intelligence?
A: Yes.

Q: So these aliens from Planet X, and some people like Sitchen and von Daniken, when they're looking at these cuneiform texts, let's say from Sumeria, and they're trying to find out what they're reading about and referring to these as flying geniuses, flying intelligences, aliens from other worlds, but you're saying that these same identities are what, in the Bible we would be calling fallen angels?
A: That's correct. They have all of the same attributes. They came down from heaven to earth, they interacted with humankind; and then they interbreed to create hybrids, they preach false gospels and alien philosophies and perform very evil acts. They're very wicked beings. People who have studied aliens per se will tell you that they're not very nice. In fact they're very wicked and very devious, and they're users and abusers. And if you look at the description of the fallen angels, that's basically the same thing. They're doing the same things, they're coming from the same place, and all of them appear to be working against God's purpose on earth by preaching false gospels and teaching men to do things that are contrary to the will of God.

Q: Some of the best secular researchers in the past - Hynek, Dr. John Mack, Jacques Vallee - all came to the same conclusion; that whatever these beings are, they are identical with biblical demonology. You mentioned the word 'hybrids.' So I want to ask you about Gen 6. What does that have to do with these aliens?
A: In Gen 6 we have the same thing happening. In UFO lore we also see it happening. We have these advanced beings coming down from heaven to earth and interbreeding with humans to create hybrid forms. In the ancient worlds these were called giants or Nephilim. They were very tall, and very smart and very good looking. Since the 20th century mankind has advanced dramatically in technological prowess, and we've actually gotten taller. Our general state of being is greatly improved by the advent of technology, and some believe that the tech advances we have made are due to being seeded by these alien beings who have given people various types of tech at various points in history; that they, then, have claimed to have invented on their own. This enters the stream of human commerce, and humans become more and more advanced, more like the aliens themselves than like the humans who lived on earth since the beginning. We've changed. We're different. Our intelligence level is higher. I couldn't tell you if there are giants on the earth now, but it seems that if such a thing were to happen, it's happening right now.

Q: Were these aliens destroyed in the great flood?
A: The aliens themselves were not destroyed in the flood. But their offspring were, and their works were. The aliens which appear to be at least partially spiritual in nature wouldn't have been destroyed in such a crude act as a flood; they would have been able to escape. But what they created on earth was totally destroyed, which was God's intention. The giants and all their great stone structures were, for the most part, annihilated, and probably their technology as well. We occasionally see artifacts that are buried very deeply in the earth, such as in coal mines - the Baghdad battery, etc., but for the most part they were destroyed.

Q: Why do you suppose the aliens created giants?
A: It's my theory that they wanted to create an army that they could use to fight against heaven, because they'd been thrown down from heaven. And it was Satan's intention, and his followers, to retake heaven for
themselves. But in order to do so they needed an army. So they took the seed of men - specifically the seed of Eve - and altered one of her eggs, I believe - and re implanted it, and this became the serpent line of Cain. And
from Cain came the giants, and the giants were then trained by these fallen angels in order to create an army that they could use to fight against God himself. I believe that they will try this, and ARE trying this, again in the end times. To fight against the second coming of Christ.

Q: The English theologian, G.H. Pember, in his 1870s masterpiece, Earth's Earliest Ages, analyzed the prophecies of Jesus Christ that said the end times would be a repeat of the days of Noah. Pember outlined what he called 'the seven great causes of the antediluvian destruction,' and documented how these were developing in his lifetime. But there was one of the signs that wasn't yet obvious in the 1970s; that was the 7th sign, what he called "the most fearful sign," which would be the return of the spirits of the Nephilim - the appearance on earth of beings of the principality of the air and their unlawful intercourse with the human race. That's how he said it. Do you agree, and would we see perhaps part of this in the increase in the manifestation of UFO activity in recent years? But would this also portend that this Planet X might be in some kind of elliptical orbit that will soon bring it back into nearness, into visibility? Do you believe that Pember was correct, that that would be 'the' sign of the days of Noah that Jesus had prophesied?
A: Yes. I believe that the last of the signs will be the reappearance of the Nephilim. They're probably in hiding, and in production right now. But they'll probably reveal themselves in a dramatic way - in a very heavy-handed and very carefully timed way - because I believe they were thrown down from heaven, which is probably Planet X, and they are probably on their way here right now through the inner solar system. And, if so, they have very little time to act because if what I think is going to happen, does happen, basically the near passing of Planet X is going to be so destructive to mankind that if we're not properly prepared all mankind will be wiped out. And they're trying to fight against this. But they're so heavily mismatched by God and his angels that they're desperate, and they're going to do everything they have to in order to survive, up to and including enslaving the human race. I believe we may be in the early stages of that with these economic problems. We can think of it as the beginning of sorrows. But the actual appearance of the Nephilim; it won't be like a government UFO disclosure. It's going to be something like major flying saucers at the White House, at a major global crisis. There will be nothing accidental or flippant about it. It will be a time of earth's greatest crisis when they make their appearance.

Q: Among the schools of thought concerning aliens, some believe that wherever there home base might be, they are also traveling to the earth off and on now, from distances using advanced technology, wormholes, etc. Others, however, believe that they are already here and exist in a parallel dimension and somehow are able to move through these gateways into and out of our reality. And then a third camp believes both are happening: some are already here; some are somewhere else; and that both, using far superior technology way beyond our comprehension, are already here in another dimension, or even holographic. We talked to Chuck Missler and he went into the whole idea of a holographic extra dimensional reality, basically the mind of God, if you will, that we're living within. What do you believe? Are we talking about beings that can travel here when they want to in some kind of technology we don't understand, or do they exist in a parallel reality, or is it both?
A: Probably it's a higher dimension, something like a parallel reality. I tend to believe, based on what the Bible seems to be teaching, that there is a higher level of reality called the spirit realm. And there's a lower level, which is the physical. And there are interface points between them, where there are gateways. That's why I was thinking about the idea of Babylon as a gateway, an illegally constructed gateway that God did not want created, so he ended up taking out the Tower of Babel before it became fully operational. I think there may possibly be certainly heavily guarded and contested areas that are interface points between these two realms, and that is where these spirits pass between the realms and come here to accomplish whatever they want to accomplish. But there may be unauthorized entry points, too, which would be a serious issue for God to
manage the earth because they cause a lot of chaos. They manipulate God's creation and humans. I tend to believe there is a kind of dichotomy between the higher and the lower level of existence. And various holes in
space/time where these beings can sneak in unauthorized.

Q: You said "illegally constructed." Does this imply that under some conditions these forces would have a 'legal' right? In my 30+ years in the ministry I learned that demonic forces could actually have certain rights; in other words, where they are invited in, to a particular geography or a particular person's life, it almost takes on the form of a legal right. They have a right to be there, which is different than if they have no rights whatsoever to be there, in which case they're very easy to get rid of. But where they have invitations and rights it changes everything, and in my years of ministry I found that some people couldn't wrap their minds around that. There was a church Nita and I knew - when it was founded, many years later it was turned into an Assembly of God church. We knew the pastor there. But what he did not know is that many years earlier the building had been built by a local coven [witches]. And actually in the legal language it had been dedicated to spiritual forces. Well, for more than five years in that church the pastor had all kinds of weird, spooky stuff, like the church was haunted. Finally, one day the chief of police called him and said, "Hey, I want to show you something." He had found the old, original documents for the building, and how this legalese had been written in. And he was the first guy, Dr. Bob Cornwall, who had ever raised the question: did these beings have the legal right to be there? Now let me ask you a question. Is there any part about Babylon or anywhere else on the earth ...or this Planet X...where they have a legal right to be? Do they have a means of legal entry to our world, or is it all illegal, or does this terminology even apply at all?
A: God placed the fallen angels to administer it even from the beginning. From what I've been able to discern, they weren't very good in heaven, so he kind of demoted them to managing the earth. And so these various
powers and principalities and rulers have an authority over the earth which God gave them until such time as He found someone who could do it better. So I believe you are right; they do have the legal right to mastery over certain regions. And that building, I'm not sure they had a legal right based on a contract, but who knows? Every region has its own principality ruling over it; that's right out of the Bible.

Q: You're talking about the Divine Council.
A: The Divine Council, correct. God apportioned the earth according to the sons of God (in Deut 28?) . This is why the Nephilim formed a ruling elite over everyone they contacted because they believed that they had the
divine right of rulership, based on the fact that they were descendants of the fallen angels who had fathered them.. And in that, they were correct. Until God comes and replaces them. He'll do so...and in time. He'll replace them with Christians. They will remain in charge of the dominions of earth until they are thrown down into the abyss.

Q: So the fallen council [the fallen angels] is somehow connected to Planet X, the alien phenomenon?
A: I believe they were cast down from Planet X, and I believe that Planet X is an interface between heaven and earth. It's more of a tool or weapon that God uses, rather than the place where he lives. More of a military kind
of a Death Star situation. You don't really want to live there, but it's kind of handy if you're the King of the Universe. By the way, I think that Star Wars was one of the most brilliant anti-Christianity propaganda pieces ever created. They made it look like the divine king on the throne was in fact the evil emperor in charge of the death star, and the rebels were the good guys, and the empire were the bad guys. According to the Bible, the
opposite is true. Sometime in the future I'll write an article at www.mysteriousuniverse.com called Star Wars Cipher, in which I talk about that concept at length as to Star Wars series, particularly the first one, was a brilliant anti-Christ propaganda designed to train people to rebel against the divine throne in heaven. Planet X is evil.

Q: One of the latest entries into the SW series, The Clone Wars. Ultimately do you believe the purpose of the alien agenda is to turn mankind into a kind of clone war, an army that could be used to fight against God?
A: Yes, they'll eliminate those who will not go along with their agenda, and then interbreed and clone those who will, and use them to fight against the Second Coming. That's my theory.

Q: How does Planet X fit into the end times equation? By the way, when you talk about Planet X are you also talking about Nibiru?
A: Yes, it's the same planet. Nibiru (Nee-bee-roo) is the Sumerian name, which literally means 'the planet of the crossing.' That means it's the planet that crosses the orbits of the planets. I believe that Planet X will be used by God to chastise the earth, shake it out of its place, to actually cause great physical discomfort, possibly even cause the earth to tilt on its axis even more. The Bible says the earth will reel to and fro like a drunkard, and it would require the near passing of a planet-sized object to do that. Unless God would reach out his hand and push the earth, which I don't think he does. He tends to use other physical objects to accomplish his goals. But, also most importantly, I believe it will appear as the sign of the son of Man. Because just when that sign appears, that's when things really get bad for the inhabitants of earth. Matt. 24, this happens near the end of the tribulation period, after which time the seals hit - there are no more 1/3's and 1/2 measures [of the population; numbers of people who die]. It's major numbers of people dying. The kingdom of the Antichrist will be totally destroyed. And everyone on earth suffering from hailstones and terrible diseases. So I believe Planet X will be used by God.

Q: But now we're getting to a point which I personally think is maybe the most important point we'll make tonight. You mentioned the sign of the Son of Man appearing in the heavens. I want to get your input on recent Vatican comments "that there is a certain possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe and that this would not contradict the Catholic faith." In 2005 another Vatican astronomer tackled the subject of extra-solar, ET life in a small book published by the Vatican, in which he concluded that the chances are better now, than not, that mankind is facing a discovery of ET intelligence. And before him, Msgr. Balducci went so far as to say that ET's were already interacting with earth and that some of the Vatican leaders were already aware it; he was never corrected by the Vatican. Then maverick Catholic theologian, Malachi Martin, was asked about 12 years ago, by Art Bell, why the Vatican was so heavily invested in the study of deep space at the Arizona conservatory. Fr Martin replied that it was because, at the highest levels of the Vatican "they knew what was approaching the earth within 5-10 years," and that it would be of "the greatest importance" to the earth. Someone used the term 'our space brothers.' Why do you think that the Vatican has been positioning itself in the way that it has in the last decade, in such an unprecedented way?

A: I think they've figured out that Planet X is on its way, and that it's about to figure very prominently in the end time equation: when Planet X comes down. The so-called space brothers are going to come right before it and tell us that they are God. I think the Vatican wants to be prepared for that eventuality. Some of them might want to say that, no, these beings are Antichrist, but some may want to say that these beings ARE Christ. I think the Vatican is a mixed bag right now, if you will, of true Christians and of Freemasons. [BINGO!] The Freemasons are the ones that worship these space brothers, and they want them to come down, because this is Lucifer - the same Lucifer that they've wanted to get the power from for many thousands of years, ever since the early Egyptian times. I think they're waiting for Lucifer to come down and enlighten us. But others may think that Jesus is coming, also, or both. But one thing that's clear; a telescope is not effective for searching for ET life, as we learned from Lowell's (?) attempt to study life on Mars. He thought there were canals on Mars. Even more powerful telescopes can't see the details of Mars' surface, even today. The only real use for a telescope is to search for other planets in our solar system, and distant stars. For large objects, small objects, and ET life...not effective at all. The only real reason I think they're using them is for Planet X. That was the first thing I thought of when I heard that they were doing that, because I was studying Planet X around the same time that they decided to build that telescope. [The Vatican is currently controlled by Lucifer-worshippers. As soon as I finish the UFO series on the blog I plan to do a series on the Vatican.]

Q: So you're saying this is why the Vatican actually created these observatories, so they could look for, or study, the approach of Planet X?
A: Correct. That's their primary reason. They might be looking for ET life, also; but the primary reason, and the only real reason they would have as religionists, is to search for God. And the search for God corrolates very
closely with the search for Planet X.

Q: And you also mentioned Freemasons. Of course I just put out my new book, which has a lot to do with that. And talking about the Great Seal of the United States, which is a prophecy of the return of Apollo at the end of time. Is this Apollo related to Planet X?
A: Possibly. Apollo actually, or Apollyon, is said to come up out of the abyss. So Apollo is probably one of the earlier fallen angels that were cast out, and locked in chains in the abyss - that Jude mentions. Probably he
was one of the fallen angels before the flood. It was so wicked and so out of control that he had to be chained up.

Q: And yet NASA refers to 'near earth orbiting objects' as Apollo objects. Why do they do that?
A: Possibly...I'm not certain... they use a lot of Greek terminology for a lot of things. They named one asteroid after Egyptian pharoahs. But it's an interesting question. If Apollo had something to do with one of these
near-earth asteroids, it could be the key to the abyss is actually an asteroid hitting one of our oceans and opening up a huge hole, out of which these fallen angels could then escape. [The reason NASA uses this type of terminology is that, contrary to what the public believes, NASA was never set up to do space research, but to accommodate the 'black ops' military for more esoteric purposes than simple space exploration.]

Q: Well, as you were talking, what it made me think is that maybe this has something to do with - as Planet X comes back into nearness to the earth - that this will signal that moment in time in which that spirit will rise up from out of the bottom ... maybe there's some kind of connection between the two.
A: Possibly, gravitational attraction will cause tremors or some sort of electromagnetic link to be switched off; who knows? Could be simply a reference to an asteroid hitting Europa. Planet X absolutely has a huge amount of asteroids, any one of which could hit earth and open up a hole in the abyss. In the Book of Job (Ch 28?) the other reference in the Bible to Abaddon, which is the other name of Apollyon, actually appears in Job in relationship to the creation. And during what I've determined to be the creation of the moon - by the cutting out of a huge amount of earth's mantle and throwing it into space - which I believe is actually described in Job, Sheol is uncovered ... and Abaddon has no covering. That's the only other place in the Bible where the word Abaddon is used, so it leads me to believe possibly some asteroidal impact will re-open the abyss and allow these creatures - these fallen angels - access to the upper earth again, during which time they'll create an enormous amount of mayhem.

Q: So you believe, then, that the Vatican has been searching for Planet X? And why?
A: They're searching for Planet X because they're searching for God. And God uses Planet X as one of his primary tools of managing earth. He used it to create earth; he uses it to manage earth at various points; he uses it to give signals of major events in salvation history; and he will also use Planet X to chastise earth in the end times. And possibly to replace earth at the end of the Millennium.

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COMMENT: Previous to hearing this interview, I knew next to nothing about Planet X. I've heard it referred to, of course, but never researched it at all. I thought it was perhaps a figment of the fertile imaginations of New Agers...so this was quite interesting and new to me.

Royal Heir